FORT MYERS, Fla. (AP) - Deputies didn't use excessive force in an altercation with Rush guitarist Alex Lifeson at a hotel on New Year's Eve 2003, a federal judge has ruled.
Lifeson, whose real name is Alex Zivojinovich, had sued in federal court claiming that Collier County deputies violated his civil rights while subduing him and his son during a skirmish at a party at the Ritz-Carlton hotel in Naples, Fla. Tasers were used on the pair, and Lifeson's nose was broken.
But U.S. District Judge Paul Magnuson wrote in a ruling last week that deputies' actions "were objectively reasonable." The judge also ruled that the hotel and a security employee weren't negligent in the case.
Lifeson's Naples lawyer, Michael McDonnell, said he plans to appeal.
The skirmish started when Lifeson's son, Justin Zivojinovich, agitated hotel security by getting up on a platform where the house band had been performing.
Security called deputies, who escorted Justin out of the hotel with his father following behind. The two then fought with deputies in a stairwell.
Criminal charges resulted, and last year Lifeson, 53, and his son accepted a plea deal that included no jail time.
Rush, a Canadian trio, has been recording and touring together for more than three decades. Rush's hits include "Tom Sawyer," "Limelight" and "The Spirit of Radio."
Rush rocker loses cop lawsuit
Moderator: Priests of Syrinx
Rush rocker loses cop lawsuit
<a href="http://jam.canoe.ca/Music/" target="_new">By JAM! Music</a>
Don't tell me about rock and roll I'm out there in the clubs and on the streets and I'm living it! I am rock and roll!
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Walkinghairball
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Walkinghairball
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the preconception of this its unity in its duplication, of infinitude realizing itself in self-consciousness, has many sides to it and encloses within it elements of varied significance being thier for a loved one fight or flight and we know the police went above and beyond their call of duty in the wrong 
direction be as it may the cops along with our gov will say, take and do whatever they please and are a bunch of liars for the most part for one among many reasons is money makes people liars and before I just go off on some sort of inconcievable rant here I will say even though the truth doesn't always win in your heart it does just one more comment if I was Alex I would move out of FL because the cops will stalk you for causing their preconcieved trouble see me stupid not one fucking period comma or anything else one would say using correct english 
direction be as it may the cops along with our gov will say, take and do whatever they please and are a bunch of liars for the most part for one among many reasons is money makes people liars and before I just go off on some sort of inconcievable rant here I will say even though the truth doesn't always win in your heart it does just one more comment if I was Alex I would move out of FL because the cops will stalk you for causing their preconcieved trouble see me stupid not one fucking period comma or anything else one would say using correct english When evil is allowed to compete with good, evil has an emotional populist appeal that wins out unless good men & women stand as a vanguard against abuse.
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Walkinghairball
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Honestly, I understand fight and flight. I have had both happen to myself on more than one occasion. I also understand self perservation, and the save yer child he's being pawed over by overzealous think they are the law types.
Still, my point being............none of it would have happened if Justin wouldn't have gone up on the stage in the first place. The non compliance just made it worse. Ask Alex and his nose and taser burns.
Still, my point being............none of it would have happened if Justin wouldn't have gone up on the stage in the first place. The non compliance just made it worse. Ask Alex and his nose and taser burns.
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Kares4Rush
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^^^Me wrote:the preconception of this its unity in its duplication, of infinitude realizing itself in self-consciousness, has many sides to it and encloses within it elements of varied significance being thier for a loved one fight or flight and we know the police went above and beyond their call of duty in the wrong
James Joyce stream of consciousness!
Freeze this moment a little bit longer...
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Kares4Rush
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I agree, Hairy but also cops have an inherant fiduciary relationship to the public. They are held to a higher standard to protect us (yes, even from ourselves). People do stupid things.Walkinghairball wrote:Honestly, I understand fight and flight. I have had both happen to myself on more than one occasion. I also understand self perservation, and the save yer child he's being pawed over by overzealous think they are the law types.
Still, my point being............none of it would have happened if Justin wouldn't have gone up on the stage in the first place. The non compliance just made it worse. Ask Alex and his nose and taser burns.
JUSTIN did a stupid thing. Alex possibly too. BUT I feel the cops abused their fiduciary relationship (one of inherant trust by the public) and turned their rights and power given to them for good into something cruel and unnecessary. I don't think the public was in danger here and tasering Alex six times didn't solve anything for anyone except possibly to sooth an overblown ego of a cop or some such other silly thing.
They're not here to "punish" us for our crimes. The court system is supposed to do that. Ugh. I could go on but I think I've made my silly point.
I abhor violence of any kind and shrink at the thought of it but I know I have to learn to get a tougher skin sometimes and try to understand it.Freeze this moment a little bit longer...
Good points and yes Justin shouldn't have gotten up on stage to begin with but that still doesn't give the police a right to taser someone or beat them. I don't like violence either and of course would fight for my freedom if need be, doesn't mean I have to keep quite about things I see wrong in society. Like Kares said the police sometimes over step the power they are intrusted with. Be it ego's or the fight or flight response they are like a gang when it comes to sticking together and not beyond lying either. I know of people that have been harrassed by the police too, after being arrested for one thing they sometimes think it's open season for that person.
When evil is allowed to compete with good, evil has an emotional populist appeal that wins out unless good men & women stand as a vanguard against abuse.
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Walkinghairball
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I'm gonna break down yer post Kev, and I just want to let everyone know where my point on all this is. I do not mean to bash. Please bear with me on this.
Here is my point. As I have said along I love Alex, and to see him hurt angers me, but it still falls to Justin. Yes, even if my kid did something like that I would defend her cuz I am not going to let anyone mess her like that. Still, I would be just as wrong.
Yes there are bad cops, lying cops, gang mentality cops, but when they tell you to jump, you jump.
Do exactly what they say, when they tell you to and it don't end up that bad.
I was never going to post this next bit but it fits the topic to a "T"
My brother did the drunk stupid thing last July at his own home. He was out celebrating his birthday and got way too drunk. He got some bad news about a friend in Iraq and lost his mind.
His daughter was there, (she was 18 then), and she called my mom. Mom got there just before the neighbor called the police.
Here's my brothers view on police. He respects the badge and the authority.
He did not want to comply a cop who told him to sit down when he wanted to get a glass of water. Well he didn't.
So 4 cops beat him down as the female cop bruised my moms arm keeping her away from it all. My brother was tasered 3 times in the small of his back till he pissed himself.
The cop said John hit him........he got up to get a glass of water.
Mom said, "you don't have to do that just tell him to stop"..................they said, "John, are you pissing yourself"?
In the police report is says John was never hit or kicked and he was subdued with a "Touch" taser...............He had a black eye, a 15 inch scrape down his side, and 2 taser barb spots that infected.
Other than my brother being upset about being beat down, if you asked him today, he would say it is his own fault for not listening to what 4 asshole cops who like to beat up on drunk guys told him to do.
He caused it plain and simple. I love my brother, but he was a dumbass, and he knows it.
I bet everything I have in the world, had Justin complied in the beginning, it would have never made the newspaper.
Again, not trying to be an asss here, I just thought I had to elaborate a bit.
He would have been "guitar butt stroked" at one of my gigs.Justin shouldn't have gotten up on stage to begin with
True, but when a cop tells you to stop and comply, that is exactly what you do.that still doesn't give the police a right to taser someone or beat them
Here is my point. As I have said along I love Alex, and to see him hurt angers me, but it still falls to Justin. Yes, even if my kid did something like that I would defend her cuz I am not going to let anyone mess her like that. Still, I would be just as wrong.
Yes there are bad cops, lying cops, gang mentality cops, but when they tell you to jump, you jump.
Do exactly what they say, when they tell you to and it don't end up that bad.
I was never going to post this next bit but it fits the topic to a "T"
My brother did the drunk stupid thing last July at his own home. He was out celebrating his birthday and got way too drunk. He got some bad news about a friend in Iraq and lost his mind.
His daughter was there, (she was 18 then), and she called my mom. Mom got there just before the neighbor called the police.
Here's my brothers view on police. He respects the badge and the authority.
He did not want to comply a cop who told him to sit down when he wanted to get a glass of water. Well he didn't.
So 4 cops beat him down as the female cop bruised my moms arm keeping her away from it all. My brother was tasered 3 times in the small of his back till he pissed himself.
The cop said John hit him........he got up to get a glass of water.
Mom said, "you don't have to do that just tell him to stop"..................they said, "John, are you pissing yourself"?
In the police report is says John was never hit or kicked and he was subdued with a "Touch" taser...............He had a black eye, a 15 inch scrape down his side, and 2 taser barb spots that infected.
Other than my brother being upset about being beat down, if you asked him today, he would say it is his own fault for not listening to what 4 asshole cops who like to beat up on drunk guys told him to do.
He caused it plain and simple. I love my brother, but he was a dumbass, and he knows it.
I bet everything I have in the world, had Justin complied in the beginning, it would have never made the newspaper.
Again, not trying to be an asss here, I just thought I had to elaborate a bit.
This space for rent
I agree with all that and glad you did mention that there are bad cops
and some times good cops become bad cops under difficult circumstances.
One more point is that no one likes to be bossed around and there shouldn't be any reason to be, unless your being an ass. The question in my mind, did the cops go to far? Seems with a broken nose perhaps they did and sounds like they did with your brother too. It goes back to the fight or flight and when anyone decides to fight they go all the way and sometimes our mind carry's it past, what is actually needed. I get your point though... if your being a knuckel head you may end up getting knuckels in your face. None of us will ever know for sure what exactly went down, just the cops Alex and Justin.
and some times good cops become bad cops under difficult circumstances.
One more point is that no one likes to be bossed around and there shouldn't be any reason to be, unless your being an ass. The question in my mind, did the cops go to far? Seems with a broken nose perhaps they did and sounds like they did with your brother too. It goes back to the fight or flight and when anyone decides to fight they go all the way and sometimes our mind carry's it past, what is actually needed. I get your point though... if your being a knuckel head you may end up getting knuckels in your face. None of us will ever know for sure what exactly went down, just the cops Alex and Justin.
When evil is allowed to compete with good, evil has an emotional populist appeal that wins out unless good men & women stand as a vanguard against abuse.
My two cents . . .
As far as the broken nose goes, I have had a great deal of experience in the area of personal combat. I have undergone many years of martial arts training as well as law enforcement academy and work in the corrections environment. I have learned that, under the right circumstances, a human nose can be broken with as little as a glancing blow from a misguided pinky finger. No kidding. So, I cannot say that a broken nose necessarily constitutes excessive force on behalf of the police officers. In fact, this is the very reason many law enforcement agencies are now relying heavily on video recording of their activities.
As far as the whole "bad cop" argument . . . law enforcement officers are trained with the sole purpose of protecting the public. They enter a scene where they don't have the benefit of running a complete background check of the persons involved. Instead, they must do an instant assessment of the situation and immediately determine the best way to perform their primary function, protect the public.
If I entered a situation where someone was on a stage who didn't belong there, I would view it as a clear cut case of trespassing. Not knowing the intent of the perpetrator, I would assume he intended some form of harm. Not because I was profiling or looking for a fight, but because I MUST protect the others on stage from harm. Without having a question and answer time with the perpetrator, I cannot safely assume he means no harm, especially if he is displaying obvious signs of intoxication. So, I do whatever it takes to remove him. Beginning with verbal commands, which I would never issue more than one of, I would then advance to physical intervention leading then to whatever form of pain compliance I believed the situation calls for. I would not stop until the perpetrator was under control, either due to restraints or his own choice (Hairy's brother broke that requirement when he arose for a glass of water, it was seen as a violation of a verbal command). Again, the primary goal being the protection of the public. If a second person, say, Alex for example, were to join into the fray, he would immediately enter into whatever form of restraint I was implementing at the time.
As far as the gang mentality the public sometimes views the police as showing, I don't think in most cases that holds water. Rather, what is seen is a group of well trained individuals working as a team to, again, ensure the safety of the general public. These officers, more often than not, have no idea the intent of the perpetrator. Nor do they have knowledge of whatever weapons he may have on his persons, or his fighting ability. The police are trained to respond, at all times, that the person is armed and trained to engage in combat. They then reduce their level of containment if they find out otherwise. Again, the protection of the general public is the ultimate goal. They cannot start slowly with many potentially violent persons because that permits an unacceptable level of danger to the public.
That's my view.
Funny thing is, it is the public that cries out against the law enforcement officers when they are putting their lives on the line to protect that same public. A vast majority of the time the public greatly benefits by the actions of these officers.
As far as the broken nose goes, I have had a great deal of experience in the area of personal combat. I have undergone many years of martial arts training as well as law enforcement academy and work in the corrections environment. I have learned that, under the right circumstances, a human nose can be broken with as little as a glancing blow from a misguided pinky finger. No kidding. So, I cannot say that a broken nose necessarily constitutes excessive force on behalf of the police officers. In fact, this is the very reason many law enforcement agencies are now relying heavily on video recording of their activities.
As far as the whole "bad cop" argument . . . law enforcement officers are trained with the sole purpose of protecting the public. They enter a scene where they don't have the benefit of running a complete background check of the persons involved. Instead, they must do an instant assessment of the situation and immediately determine the best way to perform their primary function, protect the public.
If I entered a situation where someone was on a stage who didn't belong there, I would view it as a clear cut case of trespassing. Not knowing the intent of the perpetrator, I would assume he intended some form of harm. Not because I was profiling or looking for a fight, but because I MUST protect the others on stage from harm. Without having a question and answer time with the perpetrator, I cannot safely assume he means no harm, especially if he is displaying obvious signs of intoxication. So, I do whatever it takes to remove him. Beginning with verbal commands, which I would never issue more than one of, I would then advance to physical intervention leading then to whatever form of pain compliance I believed the situation calls for. I would not stop until the perpetrator was under control, either due to restraints or his own choice (Hairy's brother broke that requirement when he arose for a glass of water, it was seen as a violation of a verbal command). Again, the primary goal being the protection of the public. If a second person, say, Alex for example, were to join into the fray, he would immediately enter into whatever form of restraint I was implementing at the time.
As far as the gang mentality the public sometimes views the police as showing, I don't think in most cases that holds water. Rather, what is seen is a group of well trained individuals working as a team to, again, ensure the safety of the general public. These officers, more often than not, have no idea the intent of the perpetrator. Nor do they have knowledge of whatever weapons he may have on his persons, or his fighting ability. The police are trained to respond, at all times, that the person is armed and trained to engage in combat. They then reduce their level of containment if they find out otherwise. Again, the protection of the general public is the ultimate goal. They cannot start slowly with many potentially violent persons because that permits an unacceptable level of danger to the public.
That's my view.
Funny thing is, it is the public that cries out against the law enforcement officers when they are putting their lives on the line to protect that same public. A vast majority of the time the public greatly benefits by the actions of these officers.
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Middle Kingdom
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While I generally agree with your whole post,zepboy wrote:
As far as the gang mentality the public sometimes views the police as showing, I don't think in most cases that holds water. Rather, what is seen is a group of well trained individuals working as a team to, again, ensure the safety of the general public.
there is a time when the person is restrained and it is time to reduce or
stop the excessive force used.
Repeated kicking, punching or tasering after the subject is subdued
crosses the line, especially if it is multiple officers involved.
However:
I have always felt that Alex and son had little chance of making
a case because he seemed to have intervened during the restraining process, and as stated, Alex would then also have to be restrained at that point. I'm sure the cops got angry in the stairwell that they received some shots, and their bravado caused them to take extra shots, taserings, that weren't necessary.
Hopefully this ends it, and Alex moves out of the state.
