Such alot of pain on the earth...

Xanadu · Post by **Xanadu** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:00 pm

I don't care if I am stepping on anyones socks here...this is so fucked up...

http://www.signs-of-the-times.org/signs ... ilians.php

Soup4Rush · Post by **Soup4Rush** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:30 am

Xanadu · Post by **Xanadu** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:34 am

Did you see how many people have been killed, relocated and fled the country? I think its a little more than a civil war.

They when they are done killing each other we pave the whole shithole over, so we can launch strikes against the rest of them terrorists assholes

Och listen to you...you just want to wipe them out? Then callously attack another nation? Did you read the entire article?

Soup4Rush · Post by **Soup4Rush** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:58 am

Xanadu · Post by **Xanadu** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:46 am

That is a real tragedy...I have friends who are in the military and it breaks my heart.

If a guy sticks a gun in your face are you going to let him kill you?

I'm a pacifist but I wouldn't let him kill me...nothing wrong with self defense. I'm the type that if somebody broke into my house I wouldn't wait for them to try and stab me, I'd blow their head off right there

What is going on over there is really sad...the media is portraying an illusion, this "war on terror"...you really buy that when our troops following orders not being told the truth not questioning (as they're trained) are killing civilians, women and children...

It really freaks people out when that illusion is challenged. In fact is is violently opposed...who would want the favorable idea that we are fighting for good to be untrue. I think the vast majority of Islamic people over there (and yes there are those freaks who are killers) are peaceful, loving ordinary people just like many of us and I don't think they are deserving of such tragedy.

...the fact that 655,000 Iraqi people have been murdered since the beginning of the invasion, at least 50% by US forces directly.

that 1.6 million Iraqis have fled the country as a result of the presence of US troops.

that Iraq's health service has disintegrated, with even the most basic treatments unavailable, and that up to half of the aforementioned 655,000 deaths might have been avoided if proper medical care had been available. 2,000 doctors and nurses have been killed with 18,000 more choosing to leave the country in fear of their lives.

the 'Iraqization' of the conflict, where US-sponsored deaths squads being run out of the Iraqi interior ministry are murdering dozens of innocent Iraqi civilians daily in an attempt to twist the root cause of Iraq's problems - the invasion of a sovereign nation by a foreign aggressor - and create the appearance of an internal 'sectarian' conflict between rival Iraqi ethnic and religious factions, when no such serious sectarian strife has ever existed in recent Iraqi history.

the chilling report that the Bush government and its generals are planning to "penalize Iraq if it fails to stop the violence", violence for which the Bush government itself is responsible.

Under this last, the US military would launch an assault on the densely populated neighborhoods of Baghdad, beginning with Sadr City, the home of some 2 million impoverished Shia and the stronghold of the anti-American cleric Moqtada al-Sadr and his Mahdi Army militia, that is, one of the groups representing the will of the Iraqi people.

In layman's terms, this means that the Bush government has decided that to "win the Iraq war" and "liberate the Iraqi people", it must wage a wholesale war on the Iraqi people in order to coerce them to accept US government rule over their country and lives. Those that submit will live, those that do not, will die. It couldn't be more simple. Iraq has been destroyed, not liberated...

Soup4Rush · Post by **Soup4Rush** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:58 am

awip2062 · Post by **awip2062** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:38 pm

Interesting that the reports I hear from people who come back don't mention any of this.

They speak of Iraqi's happy to see them there.

Well, they do speak of "civilians" who try to kill them. Those aren't civilians; they are combatants, no matter the age or sex.

Soup4Rush · Post by **Soup4Rush** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:42 am

You know I deleted my posts because arguing with the left is like beating your head against the wall, only the argument makes my head hurts worse. Anyway, Sigs was good enough to send me some pictures. Too bad you will never see these in CNN, signs of the times or any other Anti American rag, so here goes:
<center>
<a href="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w9/14246402/ATTA.jpg" target="_blank">
<img src="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w9/1 ... A.jpg"></a>
<a href="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w9/14246402/ATT7.jpg" target="_blank">
<img src="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w9/1 ... 7.jpg"></a>
<a href="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w9/14246402/ATT5.jpg" target="_blank">
<img src="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w9/1 ... 5.jpg"></a>
<a href="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w9/1 ... ATT3-1.jpg" target="_blank">
<img src="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w9/1 ... 1.jpg"></a>
<br><br>
<a href="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w9/14246402/ATT1.jpg" target="_blank">
<img src="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w9/1 ... 1.jpg"></a>
</center>

God Bless America and to all who serve her!!!

ElfDude · Post by **ElfDude** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:07 am

ElfDude · Post by **ElfDude** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:11 am

Xanadu · Post by **Xanadu** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:47 am

BTW I am not on the "left"...in fact I would call myself a libertarian although I really like the republic candidate Ron Paul. Nazis had enthusiastic supporters too. I have nothing against our troops, there are many good people in the military...I have friends in the navy and marines. A few pictures of some good people doesn't discredit the massacre that is going on. Even if you can't see that, does it not bother you about the constitution? Do you even know why groups are rallying to impeach Bush and Cheney? If we don't, we are saying to future presidents that it is OK to be above the law and have monarchical powers. Is this ok?:

President George W. Bush, Vice President Richard B. Cheney, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, and Attorney General Alberto Gonzales have committed violations and subversions of the Constitution of the United States of America in an attempt to carry out with impunity crimes against peace and humanity and war crimes and deprivations of the civil rights of the people of the United States and other nations, by assuming powers of an imperial executive unaccountable to law and usurping powers of the Congress, the Judiciary and those reserved to the people of the United States, by the following acts:

1) Seizing power to wage wars of aggression in defiance of the U.S. Constitution, the U.N. Charter and the rule of law; carrying out a massive assault on and occupation of Iraq, a country that was not threatening the United States, resulting in the death and maiming of over one hundred thousand Iraqis, and thousands of U.S. G.I.s.

2) Lying to the people of the U.S., to Congress, and to the U.N., providing false and deceptive rationales for war.

3) Authorizing, ordering and condoning direct attacks on civilians, civilian facilities and locations where civilian casualties were unavoidable.

4) Instituting a secret and illegal wiretapping and spying operation against the people of the United States through the National Security Agency.

5) Threatening the independence and sovereignty of Iraq by belligerently changing its government by force and assaulting Iraq in a war of aggression.

6) Authorizing, ordering and condoning assassinations, summary executions, kidnappings, secret and other illegal detentions of individuals, torture and physical and psychological coercion of prisoners to obtain false statements concerning acts and intentions of governments and individuals and violating within the United States, and by authorizing U.S. forces and agents elsewhere, the rights of individuals under the First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and Eighth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

7) Making, ordering and condoning false statements and propaganda about the conduct of foreign governments and individuals and acts by U.S. government personnel; manipulating the media and foreign governments with false information; concealing information vital to public discussion and informed judgment concerning acts, intentions and possession, or efforts to obtain weapons of mass destruction in order to falsely create a climate of fear and destroy opposition to U.S. wars of aggression and first strike attacks.

Violations and subversions of the Charter of the United Nations and international law, both a part of the "Supreme Law of the land" under Article VI, paragraph 2, of the Constitution, in an attempt to commit with impunity crimes against peace and humanity and war crimes in wars and threats of aggression against Afghanistan, Iraq and others and usurping powers of the United Nations and the peoples of its nations by bribery, coercion and other corrupt acts and by rejecting treaties, committing treaty violations, and frustrating compliance with treaties in order to destroy any means by which international law and institutions can prevent, affect, or adjudicate the exercise of U.S. military and economic power against the international community.

9) Acting to strip United States citizens of their constitutional and human rights, ordering indefinite detention of citizens, without access to counsel, without charge, and without opportunity to appear before a civil judicial officer to challenge the detention, based solely on the discretionary designation by the Executive of a citizen as an "enemy combatant."

10) Ordering indefinite detention of non-citizens in the United States and elsewhere, and without charge, at the discretionary designation of the Attorney General or the Secretary of Defense.

11) Ordering and authorizing the Attorney General to override judicial orders of release of detainees under INS jurisdiction, even where the judicial officer after full hearing determines a detainee is wrongfully held by the government.

12) Authorizing secret military tribunals and summary execution of persons who are not citizens who are designated solely at the discretion of the Executive who acts as indicting official, prosecutor and as the only avenue of appellate relief.

13) Refusing to provide public disclosure of the identities and locations of persons who have been arrested, detained and imprisoned by the U.S. government in the United States, including in response to Congressional inquiry.

14) Use of secret arrests of persons within the United States and elsewhere and denial of the right to public trials.

15) Authorizing the monitoring of confidential attorney-client privileged communications by the government, even in the absence of a court order and even where an incarcerated person has not been charged with a crime.

16) Ordering and authorizing the seizure of assets of persons in the United States, prior to hearing or trial, for lawful or innocent association with any entity that at the discretionary designation of the Executive has been deemed "terrorist."

17) Engaging in criminal neglect in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, depriving thousands of people in Louisiana, Mississippi and other Gulf States of urgently needed support, causing mass suffering and unnecessary loss of life.

18) Institutionalization of racial and religious profiling and authorization of domestic spying by federal law enforcement on persons based on their engagement in noncriminal religious and political activity.

19) Refusal to provide information and records necessary and appropriate for the constitutional right of legislative oversight of executive functions.

20) Rejecting treaties protective of peace and human rights and abrogation of the obligations of the United States under, and withdrawal from, international treaties and obligations without consent of the legislative branch, and including termination of the ABM treaty between the United States and Russia, and rescission of the authorizing signature from the Treaty of Rome which served as the basis for the International Criminal Court.

http://www.impeachbush.org/site/News2?p ... _ctrl=1061[/code]

Soup4Rush · Post by **Soup4Rush** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:21 am

I could probably refute each and every one of those examples, but do not have the energy to do so. War is hell, what some people see as massacre, others see as the unavoidable casualties of a war... I will only offer two points.

1) Is the world and the Iraqi people better off without Saddam? BTW Saddam was a threat to world security... WMD or no.

2) if the insurgency would respect peoples right to freedom of speech and religion, lay down their weapons and accept democracy has 99% of the world has, do you honestly think the US would stay in Iraq? Democracy and the freedom to do what you want as long as you don't infringe on someone else's rights is not all that bad of a concept.. It's all about chaos and their mistaken belief that it is OK to kill in God's name. I don't think we are trying to push our way of life on the Iraqi people, just give them a right to choose how they live their own life.

ElfDude · Post by **ElfDude** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:27 am

Big Blue Owl · Post by **Big Blue Owl** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:56 am

You are not alone, Xan, and around here, it's never personal. That's why I'll always love my By-tor brothers and sisters. It's just so difficult to get most By-torians to believe any of the facts pertaining to this invasion and civil war if they aren't in line with what the Whitehouse, Tony Snow and/or Bush's perception (deception) is. I gave up a while ago.
I guess, unfortunately, we'll have to wait for a future when the past facts have the most glaring light shed upon them and the inconvenient, unpopular truths of today are spread-eagle revealed and proven to our children in their history books. I'm sure that even then, some will still have us "speaking to the hand."

Everyone has an opinion and we're very lucky to be able to express it. This is still and always will be the most free and fair country that will ever exist.

I'm not on the left either. Any party that thinks it's a good thing to let illegal ALIENS flow freely into our teeming country is completely screwed. Where is that common sense and sensibility party? Yooooo-hoooo!

YYZ30 · Post by **YYZ30** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:59 am

Soup4Rush wrote:Too bad you will never see these in CNN, signs of the times or any other Anti American rag, so here goes:

And that right there ladies and gentlemen is why its BBC America news in my house- it leans the least to the left or right.

The media has become an outlet for how sensational they can make the news- and we don't hear the good things, no matter how small- the news has become a cesspool of "how much can we trump this up?"

*clinkclick*

My 2 pennies.