Draft Legislation

[Walkinghairball]

ALLRIGHTY THEN..........
First, I will not try to verbally bash any one with this, keep in mind my biggest reason for my previous silence, this is not the place for it, IMHO.
A long time ago a man said," Don't die for your country, let that sorry bastard die for his". I firmly believe in this. I also believe you don't let someone knock the ignorance butter out of you first. I am not a war monger, I also do not like it, but I understand it. I think the War was stopped too soon. It should have gone on full force at least until now, this might have stopped the rag tag terrorists from doing some of the crap their doing now. Have some of you forgotten all the crap terrorists have done to the world? Yeah I want someones ass for the Cole, and all the people directly effected by 9/11, but now I really sound like a was monger.
Look , it's simple, everyone should take pride in their nation. Hate the war (whatever), but do love the soldier. Not the losers that tarnish our image, like the slut from the prison photos. If you don't like your country, take your butt to one of those piss hole country's that are better than where ever you are, and live a better life, I dare you. If not, live with your sheeple ideals, and learn how to speak Arabic. I will not let this happen to me or mine, and I will stand up and fight, and I will take someones ass out if they think they got the stones to man up in my grill.
Other than that live your lives and respect the fallen before you who fought so all that follow could have it just a little bit better, or you shit on them all................nuff said.


I may have offended some of you and for that I do apologise. As I said before, it's not the place for it, IMHO.

[by-tor]

Better run and hide from all the vets on this board...

Where are they? I need my cats fixed.

[by-tor]

A democrat?!?!? Wow, never would have thought that.

A Southerner unfamiliar with the concept of a Southern Democrat?

As it seems, there is not enough support for a draft at this time. Thank goodness.

Maybe Louisiana Democrats are different than the rest of the South. If something like this would have come out of Louisiana, it would have been by a Republican. The Democrats in Louisiana are extremly anti-military.

[Walkinghairball]

By-tor, you so silly.

[awip2062]

Ooooooooooooooooh! I just knew this would ged interesting.

Because of the military service of those before me and those around me now, I live in a country so strong, and so prosperous, that it can be engaged in a serious war where the enemy has vowed not to rest until pretty much every ?infidel? in my country is dead, and yet I can go on with my daily routine for the most part unaffected.

Amen! We are so spoiled here!

If you get enough peaceniks to convince a nation that they need no military, the nation is very soon conquered by some tyrant who rounds up all the able-bodied men and either conscripts them into his own army or has them put to death.

I do believe it was Blue Oyster Cult who said, "History proves again and again how nature points out the folly of men." Unfortunately, most children these days learn a revised history. They are not taught the truth of what happened nor to see those things that caused them.

The first armies were built to destroy and conquest, the second armies were built to protect.

No. This is not true. The first armies were not built to destroy and conquest. They were for protection.

War is an inevitable thing in this world and I think Myghin is just expressing his desire for an ideal world where there is no war. That is not lurking on the horizon and it will only begin to when people begin to view that philosophy. When ALL people begin to view that philosophy.

Yes, I do believe war is inevitable in this world. Myg may be expressing his desire for the ideal world, but it doesn't fit with reality unfortuntely. All people will never hold this philosophy.

Hairy...glad to hear you speak up!

[by-tor]

For the record, I enlisted in the LAARNG (that's Louisiana Army National Guard) 13 Dec 85. On 25 Sept 86 I made the switch from the Guard to the USN (United States Navy), and served aboard the USS Sellers (DDG-11), a guided missle destroyer, and the USS Ortolan (ASR-22), a dual-hulled submarine rescue ship. With the impending war in Iraq (the first one), my service was extended, and I reached my EAOS on 10 Nov 91. I was officialy, fully, and honorably discharged from the US Navy on 12 Dec 93 (after spending my final years in IR).

If I was needed, I would do it again.

[awip2062]

I am sure you would, By-Tor, and I am glad there are people out there like you.

[ElfDude]

For the record, I enlisted in the LAARNG (that's Louisiana Army National Guard) 13 Dec 85. On 25 Sept 86 I made the switch from the Guard to the USN (United States Navy), and served aboard the USS Sellers (DDG-11), a guided missle destroyer, and the USS Ortolan (ASR-22), a dual-hulled submarine rescue ship. With the impending war in Iraq (the first one), my service was extended, and I reached my EAOS on 10 Nov 91. I was officialy, fully, and honorably discharged from the US Navy on 12 Dec 93 (after spending my final years in IR).

If I was needed, I would do it again.

Then my deepest thanks go out to you as well.

[ElfDude]

I am not a war monger, I also do not like it, but I understand it.

Of course!

Hey, a fireman always wants the newest and best firefighting equipment available. But he hopes he never gets called to a fire, becasue fires ruin things and mess up people's lives. Still, he tries to be as prepared as possible.

[wcp]

except for ending slavery fascism nazism and communism war never solved anything

what was so wrong with communism? or fascism, i'm sure the german people whos economy was destroyed after WWI were grateful for fascism, as well as the crused Russian country for communism

i'm sure acts done by leaders of both parties (Hitler and Stalin/Lennon) may have used power in a bad way but the basic ideology of communism or fascism doesn't deserve to be crushed no more then democracy or a republic style governmtnt does.

but that is besides the point, i agree witha country having ethr ight to ahve a military but i don't agree in forcing others to have to participate, i know freedom doesn't come for free but when i am forced to fight i really don't have freedom do i?
i am not trying to disrespect anyone or any vetrans or military men and women it is just how i feel, i respect you all a great deal for what you do, but it isn't for me.

[Sir Myghin]

i ahve been "clobberred" none the less, thank you all for your insight. Although one cannot steal anothers point of veiw from them they can in turn aid their developement to a more enlightened state.

[ElfDude]

except for ending slavery fascism nazism and communism war never solved anything

what was so wrong with communism? or fascism, i'm sure the german people whos economy was destroyed after WWI were grateful for fascism, as well as the crused Russian country for communism

i'm sure acts done by leaders of both parties (Hitler and Stalin/Lennon) may have used power in a bad way but the basic ideology of communism or fascism doesn't deserve to be crushed no more then democracy or a republic style governmtnt does.

You need to do your homeowrk. Fascism didn't come out of Germany, it came out of Italy, fathered by Benito Mussolini.

Hitler was a socialist. Nazi was short for National Socialist party.

Stalin may have used power in a bad way? Let's look at his kill tally:
Approximately 20 million, including up to 14.5 million needlessly starved to death. At least one million executed for political "offences". At least 9.5 million more deported, exiled or imprisoned in work camps, with many of the estimated five million sent to the 'Gulag Archipelago' never returning alive. Other estimates place the number of deported at 28 million, including 18 million sent to the 'Gulag'. I'm sure the Russians were very grateful.

Let's look at other great communists. Real role models.

Chairman Mao: 14 to 20 million deaths from starvation during the 'Great Leap Forward'. Tens of thousands killed and millions of lives ruined during the 'Cultural Revolution'.

Kim Il Sung: About three million killed in the Korean War. Between 600,000 and one million North Koreans needlessly staved to death due to the economic legacy of Kim's regime. (Some reports claim that as many as three million died.)

The list could go on, but I'd be laboring the point.

Having said that, surely you know that the U.S. never just moved into communist countries and took over. They only went into countries that were fighting communist invaders and crying for help.

[ElfDude]

You need to do your homeowrk. Fascism didn't come out of Germany, it came out of Italy, fathered by Benito Mussolini.

I apologize. That whole post was really arrogant.

[wcp]

You need to do your homeowrk. Fascism didn't come out of Germany, it came out of Italy, fathered by Benito Mussolini.

lol i didn't say fascism came out of Germany i said "i'm sure the german people whos economy was destroyed after WWI were grateful for fascism" which they were, Nazism being a branch off of Fascism. after the democtratic countries of the West blamed germany for the War and charged reparations dropping the german money so low that many people couldn't afford food. i'm not defending the germans or condeming the Western countries merly trying to prove my point.

Stalin may have used power in a bad way? Let's look at his kill tally:
Approximately 20 million, including up to 14.5 million needlessly starved to death. At least one million executed for political "offences". At least 9.5 million more deported, exiled or imprisoned in work camps, with many of the estimated five million sent to the 'Gulag Archipelago' never returning alive. Other estimates place the number of deported at 28 million, including 18 million sent to the 'Gulag'. I'm sure the Russians were very grateful.

yep i don't deny the poor leadership of the Communist party of Russia though it has nothing to do with actual Communism ideology, but rather fixed to be bent over Stalins plans yet, even through this Stalin was able to bring Russia and industrialize it making it the Number 2 producer of coal and steel in the world second to the United States.

Chairman Mao: 14 to 20 million deaths from starvation during the 'Great Leap Forward'. Tens of thousands killed and millions of lives ruined during the 'Cultural Revolution'.

Kim Il Sung: About three million killed in the Korean War. Between 600,000 and one million North Koreans needlessly staved to death due to the economic legacy of Kim's regime. (Some reports claim that as many as three million died.)

also true, can't deny facts but for every autrocity commited by leaders of communist or Fascist parties there have been those countries claiming to be democratic that have done awful things as wlel. what i am trying to get across is that the basic ideologies of Comminiism and fascism are in fact not nessisarily bad it is leaders you assosciate with these parties that gives a bad reputation to them. also you have to look at it form a different angle. to most people Hitlers Germany was a war machine bent on revenge. to the german people it was a country they could be proud of again a country re-industrialized a country no longer crippled. how could they say no to that? same for Russia Stalin turned them into an industrial powerhouse in some fields somthing they had never had before. how coudl they say no? desprate people must take desprate measures.

and don't worry about your posts lol i know these are all opinions and views and i take no personal offense i hope you feel the same cause i mean no harm to you. but with out emotion a discussion just sin't as good is it?

[ElfDude]

Ah, you HAVE done your homework!

You're right about the Treaty of Versailles creating the perfect climate for someone like Hitler to gain public favor.

And yes, Stalin did industrialize Russia, but at what cost?

Those who tend to think that there's nothing wrong with communism, it just never had the right people in charge, tend to overlook something. They like the idea of communism because it all seems so fair. No rich or poor (except for the extremely rich at the top)... just equality. But the method of achieving that equality takes everyone to the lowest common denominator. There is no motive to achieve or to try to better yourself, because no reward can come from it.

Time for a history lesson that they refuse to teach in public schools... the true story of Thanksgiving (an American national holiday... a bountiful harvest celebration). In public school we are usually taught that the pilgrims were starving until they learned a few things from the "Indians". Once that cooperation was achieved, then they started having bountiful harvests and started celebrating. It's a nice multicultural fable... but the story doesn't end there, and full truth is a more intriguing story. From this point on I'll copy/paste, rather then type it out myself...

The story of the Pilgrims begins in the early part of the seventeenth century. The Church of England under King James I was persecuting anyone and everyone who did not recognize its absolute civil and spiritual authority. Those who challenged ecclesiastical authority and those who believed strongly in freedom of worship were hunted down, imprisoned, and sometimes executed for their beliefs.

A group of separatists first fled to Holland and established a community. After eleven years, about forty of them agreed to make a perilous journey to the New World, where they would certainly face hardships, but could live and worship God according to the dictates of their own consciences.

On August 1, 1620, the Mayflower set sail. It carried a total of 102 passengers, including forty Pilgrims led by William Bradford. On the journey, Bradford set up an agreement, a contract, that established just and equal laws for all members of their new community, irrespective of their religious beliefs. Where did the revolutionary ideas expressed in the Mayflower Compact come from? From the Bible. The Pilgrims were a people completely steeped in the lessons of the Old and New Testaments. They looked to the ancient Israelites for their example. And, because of the biblical precedents set forth in Scripture, they never doubted that their experiment would work.

But, this was no pleasure cruise, friends. The journey to the New World was a long and arduous one. And when the Pilgrims landed in New England in November, they found, according to Bradford's detailed journal, a cold, barren, desolate wilderness. There were no friends to greet them, he wrote. There were no houses to shelter them. There were no inns where they could refresh themselves.

And the sacrifice they had made for freedom was just beginning. During the first winter, half the Pilgrims -- including Bradford's wife -- died of either starvation, sickness, or exposure. When spring finally came, Indians taught the settlers how to plant corn, fish for cod, and skin beavers for coats. Life improved for the Pilgrims, but they did not yet prosper. This is important to understand because this is where modern American history lessons often end. Thanksgiving is actually explained in some textbooks as a holiday for which the Pilgrims gave thanks to the Indians for saving their lives rather than as a devout expression of gratitude grounded in the tradition of both the Old and New Testaments.

Here is the part that has been ommitted: The original contract the Pilgrims had entered into with their merchant-sponsors in London called for everything they produced to go into a common store, and each member of the community was entitled to one common share. All of the land they cleared and the houses they built belonged to the community as well.

Bradford, who had become the new governor of the colony, recognized that this form of collectivism was as costly and destructive to the Pilgrims as that first harsh winter, which had taken so many lives. He decided to take bold action. Bradford assigned a plot of land to each family to work and manage, thus turning loose the power of the marketplace.

That's right, long before Karl Marx was even born, the Pilgrims had discovered and experimented with what could only be described as socialism. And what happened? It didn't work! Surprise, surprise, huh? What Bradford and his community found was that the most creative and industrious people had no incentive to work any harder than anyone else, unless they could utilize the power of personal motivation!

But, while most of the rest of the world has been experimenting with socialism for well over a hundred years -- trying to refine it, perfect it, and re-invent it -- the Pilgrims decided early on to scrap it permanently. What Bradford wrote about this social experiment should be in every schoolchild's history lesson. If it were, we might prevent much needless suffering the future.

"The experience that was had in this common course and condition, tried sundry years?that by taking away property, and bring community into a common wealth, would make them happy and flourishing -- as if they were wiser than God." Bradford wrote. "For this community [so far as it was] was found to breed much confusion and discontent, and retard much employment that would have been to their benefit and comfort. For young men that were most able and fit for labor and service did repine that they should spend their time and strength to work for other men's wives and children without any recompense?that was thought injustice."

Do you hear what he was saying, ladies and gentlemen? The Pilgrims found that people could not be expected to do their best work without incentive. So what did Bradford's community try next? They unharnessed the power of good old free enterprise by involving the under-girding capitalistic principle of private property. Every family was assigned its own plot of land to work and permitted to market its own crops and products. And what was the result?

"This had very good success," wrote Bradford, "for it made all hands industrious, so much more corn was planted than otherwise would have been." Is it possible that supply-side economics could have existed before the 1980s? Yes. Read the story of Joseph and Pharoah in Genesis 41. Following Joseph's suggestion (Gen. 41:34), Pharoah reduced the tax on Egyptians to 20 percent during the "seven years of plenty" and the "Earth brought forth in heaps, " (Gen. 41:47).

In no time, the Pilgrims found they had more food than they could eat themselves. So they set up trading posts and exchanged goods with the Indians. The profits allowed them to pay off their ebts to the merchants in London. And the success and prosperity of the Plymouth settlement attracted more Europeans and began what came to be known as the "Great Puritan Migration."

Have you read this history before? Is this lesson being taught to your children today? If not, why not? Can you think of a more important lesson one could derive from the Pilgrim experience?

But guess what? There's even more that is being deliberately withheld from our modern textbooks. For example, on of those attracted to the New World by the success of Plymouth was Thomas Hooker, who established his own community in Connecticut -- the first full-fledged constitutional community and perhaps the most free society the world had ever known. Hooker's community was governed by the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut, which established strict limits on the powers of government. So revolutionary and successful was this idea that Massachusetts was inspired to adopt its Body of Liberties, which included ninety-eight separate protections of individual rights, including: "no taxation without representation," "due process of law," "trial by a jury of peers," and prohibitions against" cruel and unusual punishment."

Does all that sound familiar? It should. These are ideas and concepts that led directly to the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights. Nevertheless, the Pilgrims and Puritans of early New England are often vilified today as witch-burners and portrayed as simpletons. To the contrary, it was their commitment to pluralism and free worship that led to these ideals being incorporated into American life. Our history books purposely conceal the fact that these notions were developed by communities of devout Christians who studied the Bible and found it prescribes limited, representative government and free enterprise as the best political and economic systems.

There's only one word for this, folks: censorship. There was a time when every schoolchild learned these basic lessons of the American culture. Now these truths are being systematically expunged from the history books in favor of liberal social-studies claptrap.