PC Getting (even more) Out of Hand

Slaine mac Roth · Post by **Slaine mac Roth** » Mon Jun 07, 2004 4:48 pm

I'm not sure that it is necessary for people to have religion, but religion has to have people.

I have no problem with religion in general - if people want to believe in something, that's their business. The problems I do have are with regard to the intolerence and self-righteousness that is inherent.

A faith that has a single deity is, by its nature, evangelical and, therefore, intolerent. One of the basic tenets of christianity, whether you are talkling catholic or protestant, is the conversion of others to that faith. This stance means that the faith takes the view that they are right and the others are wrong - a faith of that nature can have no other basis (how can they say to someone 'You're right and we're wrong but we want you to renounce your faith, which is the correct one, for ours, which is the arong one). Its simple logic to realise that any faith of this kind has a high degree of intolerence at its core.

This also leads straight to self-righteousness. Another basis tenet at the core of religion is that only they are worthy of admission to heaven.

I think, basically, I don't like people imposing their own morality upon me. I have my own moral code - what I believe is right and what is wrong - and I don't need anyone to tell me this. Another thing I am tired of ism people looking disgusted at me because my three year old son knows more about Lord of the Rings than he does the bible. I don't like people forcing religion down my throat so I'm not going to do it to him, not to my daughter. When they are old enough to ask the questions themselves, I will do my best to give them the basic, unadulterated facts which will allow them to form their own opinions, as my parents did with me. To this end, neither of them have been baptised. Once again, it is a decision that they will make for themselves when they are older.

Finally, I'd like to finish off with a couple of apologies.
Firstly, for going on for so long. I've been prohibited by my wife from discussing religion so its nice to be able to spout at some length.

Secondly, I apologise if I have offended anyone who is of a spiritual nature - that is not my intention. My dislike of organised religion is so strong that I can get carried away and speak overly harshly. As I said earlier, a person's faith is their own business and not for me to criticise them for. I just wish some people would afford me the same courtesy with regard to my lack of faith.

*Lifesonite · Post by *Lifesonite » Mon Jun 07, 2004 6:01 pm

I don't think you'll make anyone angry, I certainly wasn't challenging your lifestyle or beliefs and I don't think we'll make you defend them here. I didn't mean that every person needs religion, I meant that almost every, if not every culture has invented some form of religion. I think it's a fine choice you're making, it's the choice you believe in! It's better that you do what you feel is right than to be forced into it by society's standards. My parents are not religious people, we've talked about it before, it just wasn't for them, if it's something I decide to pursue they will be fine with it.

Religion has contributed to better learning and many other things. Wicked people would have been wicked without religion. I think it's the people that can make religion a bad thing, that's my opinion.

Although I'm not sure I could ever find a set of beliefs that I completely agree with. I'm also not sure where the word of God stops and where it becomes the word of man. This is either because I am one of little faith or I've never felt completely comfortable learning from the bible. When I was younger I attended bible study for awhile but I never enjoyed it.

awip2062 · Post by **awip2062** » Mon Jun 07, 2004 9:01 pm

Slaine, no offense taken here, and I value my faith highly.

And please talk, talk! I love to talk of these things and do not mind knowing others have different opinions!

I also will not intentionally force anyone to believe as I do, but I do think that we should all be able to rationally discuss these things with those who are willing to discuss them.

ElfDude · Post by **ElfDude** » Mon Jun 07, 2004 9:33 pm

Making inflamatory posts is MY job!

I am deeply religious, but understand that everyone isn't. And it's their choice.

awip2062 · Post by **awip2062** » Mon Jun 07, 2004 9:36 pm

ElfDude wrote:Making inflamatory posts is MY job!

And you do it so well!

Slaine mac Roth · Post by **Slaine mac Roth** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:50 am

*Lifesonite wrote:
Religion has contributed to better learning and many other things. .

But has it, really? Many times, it seems, the initial reaction of religion to any new knowledge is to supress it - Gallileo's support of the Heliocentric World View being one that springs to mind.

Furthermore, religion seems to be at the heart of most cultural supression that goes on. I'm sure I don't need to list the many instances of this.

*Lifesonite wrote: I think it's the people that can make religion a bad thing, that's my opinion.

surely its people who make religion period. Without followers, a religion is nothing, hence the evangelical zeal that so many display. Sadly, the majority of the human race is corrupt to some degree therefore, sadly, it follows that anything created and including human beings is also, to some degree, corrupt.

Cynical I know, but there you are.

Let me reiterate that I don't knock anyone for having faith. However, I have a deep mistrust of blind faith and a deeper mistrust of organised religion.

*Lifesonite · Post by *Lifesonite » Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:42 am

We keep coming back to the same point, I say religion isn't bad, that it's the people who are to blame for misdeeds. Is God coming down and suppressing knowledge, or are religious wingnuts doing it? I never did say that religion was about the scientific breakthrough, but it did promote learning, mostly for the uneducated.

Religion has never been fond of cultural change, but hey, when you're working out of a book that's 2000 years old....

Again, is it the book or the people that do not like change?

People make faith and faith makes religion. Faith can only be blind as that is the quality that makes faith just that, faith. Although, to someone with faith the faith is not blind and misplaced.

This is all mostly from a philosophical viewpoint, I don't have strong faith and I don't knock you for not having strong faith.

I've never liked organized religion either, then again, I haven't experienced much of it.

In the end it's about doing what's right for you, having faith doesn't make you a better person, but it can make you feel like you're better at being a person. And I'm out of time, I have an appointment

ElfDude · Post by **ElfDude** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:59 am

You know... I've delved into politics on this board, but I've tried to stay away from religion. It's one thing to tell someone that they're not looking at history and facts and if they did, they'd understand why a certain political view is wrong.

But when you start messing with spiritual beliefs....

What am I trying to say here? You've made so many statements to which I'd like to respond. But this just isn't the place. My convictions run deep, and they are what they are because of answers to prayer, spiritual manifestations, miracles that I've witnessed, etc. If I go sharing them in a place like this... someone is going to mock them. The Savior warned of casting ones pearls before swine, because the swine will just trample the pearls into the mud. Don't mistake that for me calling anyone in here names, that's not what I'm doing. But the analogy makes sense... you don't share anything too personal with someone unless you know you can trust them.

When I did missionary work, I would invite people to discuss religion and theology, but if they didn't want to I'd smile and thank them and move on. So, while there are so many assertions you make that I'd like to take on, I think I'd better just keep out of it.

Devil's Advocate · Post by **Devil's Advocate** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:42 pm

*Lifesonite wrote:I say religion isn't bad, that it's the people who are to blame for misdeeds.

...

People make faith and faith makes religion.

If people - who, as you say, are to blame for misdeeds they commit in the name of their religion - "make faith and faith makes religion," then it is the religion that is bad.

*Lifesonite · Post by *Lifesonite » Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:04 pm

That's not what I meant. If it's not one thing it's another thing, eh?

Slaine mac Roth · Post by **Slaine mac Roth** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:32 pm

*Lifesonite wrote:We keep coming back to the same point, I say religion isn't bad, that it's the people who are to blame for misdeeds. Is God coming down and suppressing knowledge, or are religious wingnuts doing it?
Again, is it the book or the people that do not like change?

People make faith and faith makes religion. Faith can only be blind as that is the quality that makes faith just that, faith. Although, to someone with faith the faith is not blind and misplaced.

I think what is at question here is where does god end and religion begin? I don't know the answer but the question, to me, begs two more.

Firstly, what happens to god if no-one believes in him? To me, a deity is inseperable from his followers or, more likely, is his followers. A god with no followers is, in my eyes, nothing and without a reason for existence.

Secondly (and this supposes that god exists) if he is omnipotent, why does he allow the abuses that his followers commit in his name? I have asked this question of a number of commited christians and they always answer with something vague like 'its for an unknown purpose', 'god's ways are not the ways of man' and, the most poular (and hackneyed) 'god moves in mysterious ways'.

ElfDude · Post by **ElfDude** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:48 pm

I said I'd stay out of it, but I can answer these questions without delving into anything too personal. In my opinion these are no-brainers.

Slaine mac Roth wrote: Firstly, what happens to god if no-one believes in him? To me, a deity is inseperable from his followers or, more likely, is his followers. A god with no followers is, in my eyes, nothing and without a reason for existence.

A false god is simply a creation of men. Whether or not anyone believes in him, he's not there. A real God (that would be our creator) exists whether or not anyone believes in him... just like you exist whether or not your children believe in you.

Slaine mac Roth wrote:Secondly (and this supposes that god exists) if he is omnipotent, why does he allow the abuses that his followers commit in his name?

One of the greatest gifts we have from God is our free agency. We all get to chose our actions. And thus, when the day comes that we are judged, our judgement is just and fair.

If anyone commits abuses in the name of God then you know that they are lying and are not truly acting in the name of God. "By their fruits ye shall know them."

Slaine mac Roth · Post by **Slaine mac Roth** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:05 pm

ElfDude wrote: A false god is simply a creation of men. Whether or not anyone believes in him, he's not there. A real God (that would be our creator) exists whether or not anyone believes in him... just like you exist whether or not your children believe in you.

Just one question here, really. How do you know that your god is the true god?

This is an argument I have had a number of times and never gotten a satisfactory answer. You believe that your god is the true god but you don't know. Where is he proof?

awip2062 · Post by **awip2062** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:52 pm

For me, it has been a mixture of things. Mostly experience really.

He has spoken to me. He says, "My sheep know my voice." I have heard it.

For one who does not know, I would suggest that if you really want to know if He is real, ask. Just tell Him that you want to know if he is real or not. If you sincerely ask and sincerely want to know, He will show you.

ElfDude · Post by **ElfDude** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:05 pm

Some people profess to know, and some may simply believe. Fatih is, after all, the first principle of the Gospel.

However, we are given instruction in this area... James 1:5-6

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering...

Proving that God exists is as difficult as proving that He doesn't. Both atheism and belief in God require a real effort and conviction, and yes, faith. With one you put your faith in God and with the other you put your faith in the wisdom of men. I suspect that's why so many people take the "don't know, don't care" path that you have chosen... it's easier.