WMD Lies

[ElfDude]

That is not my job. I'm not, and have no desire to be the leader of millions.

The desire to be a national leader has nothing to do with it. If someone were to post in here some really nasty statements about Zivo calling him a filthy liar, my reaction would be to ask, "Why? What'd he do? What'd he say?" I would require them to back up the nasty opinions with something substantive and factual. If they failed to do so, they would discredit themselves, and everyone watching would know that it would be foolish to listen to them any further.

Whenever one watches a poitical debate, it doesn't take long for one to see which side is arguing with facts and substance and which side is arguing nothing more than emotion. Once I have identified that, I know to whom I should listen.

And as you've stated to me before, Zivo, this certainly isn't anything personal against you. I see you as a friend and appreciate that friendship.

I think perhaps, living with only two children, I have very little outlet for any sort of intellectual discussion. Consequently, I appreciate you folks for being so tolerant of me. I know that I didn't start this thread, but boy, was I glad to see that it had been started because it dealt with something I'd been aching to talk to someone about.

[Zivo]

Yeah, the friendship is sturdy enough to withstand discussion and oppinion. I'm actually glad we're different in SOME way

One difference between us is that if someone said "Zivo" was a creep or liar, I would be laughing too hard to be pissed or even question them. If they said something negative about you I might be more offended, as you seem to be a forthright, earnest person who's only apparent fault is being a Republican and as a friend, I would defend you 'til the end.

I really must apologize for my lack of serious, factual input on this matter, but I don't think I'm equipt to stay serious for any great length of time. I also know I don't always have my facts straight, but I have this feeling. This feeling that our leader is a dickhead and all the world knows it and hopes that we can at least realize it and correct the mistake. See, there I go again...

[ElfDude]

I'd better clarify something. I'm not a Republican. I haven't registered with any political party because all of them have something about them that I disagree with. Off the top of my head I can think of at least two presidential elections in which I didn't vote Republican.

That having been said, I am unapologetically conservative. There have been proposals made by Bush concerning domstic policy that have really upset me and I've been right up there complaining about them. I do not believe that Bush can do no wrong.

But his foreign policy and his national security policy has been such a breath of fresh air to me after so many years of wishy-washiness.

Now, I really do understand emotions running high. This is wartime, for crying out loud, and that is never ever easy. Just last Monday we were hearing on the news about 30+ Americans being killed in Iraq over the past few days and I was grieving as much as anyone (except for their families of course) but it hit me, the partisan press in this country WANTS me upset becasue they want John Kerry elected and they're using very bad journalism to upset me. Indulge me for a moment...

Let's say a sports writer is writing about a game between the LA Lakers and the Utah Jazz. And let's say that in his story he writes, "The Lakers played a terrible night! They allowed the Jazz to score 68 points against them! The Lakers are falling apart!" But nowhere in his story does he write how many points the Lakers scored agains the Jazz. And what if the Lakers actually had scored 112 points against the Jazz and won the game by a very large margin?

Well, that's exactly the way the war in Iraq is being presented to us by the Dan Rathers and the Peter Jennings' and the CNNs of this country. The truth is that yeah, in those few days we lost over 30 American lives (and I hold those lives sacred). But in those battles coalition forces took out over 700 terrorists! As in sprots writing, the final score of the game needs to be presented, or else the writer hasn't done his job. 30 to 700 is a pretty remarkable ratio.

Another thing we're not being told on the evening news is that over 95% of Iraq is at peace. We're also not being told of polling data in Iraq. Did you know that Iraqi citizens are being polled on their feelings about all of this? The results of the polling break down into three points... three messages that the Iraqi people want the American people to hear. Those messages are:

1. Thank you for taking out Saddam.
2. We do not like being occupied.
3. We do not want American troops to leave entirely.

Numbers one and two are no-brainers. With Saddam gone, they want to rule themselves. Nobody likes being occupied. It's a horrible way to live. But number three points out that while they want self government, they know that they still need our help because of the amount of terrorist activity in that part of the world. Fortunately, if Bush remains in charge, we won't leave them hanging. Kerry on the other hand has stated repeatedly that he thinks we should get out of there and turn it over to the UN. Well, we turned Kosovo over to the UN and everything there really has gone to hell in a handbasket. In fact, I defy anyone to show me some great, shining, UN success that has occurred in my lifetime. I sure can't remember any.

Anyway, I guess what my point is, is that "Stay the course" really is a sound message of leadership at this point.

[Mr. Potatoe Head]

the next generation coming up or shortly there after are going to have less than the people did before ww2 all the tax base is going over seas leaving our service people in need of money to continue fighting fires, police, gov workers and the like. The lower & middle class are taking the brunt of paying taxes now. That's for one, two is it right to have some ideological point of view for world peace? Some say it's oil others still payback, another point of view weapons of mass destruction, humanitarian. I suspect someone short changed someone and it was all about payback. oh what fun it must be to play cowboys and indians.
Bush isn't going to be happy till all the middle east has cotton candy, rollercoasters and funnle cake. It seems like I've become a sort of leper
here at By-Tor, think I care NOT the whole fucking world is messed up so why can't I be I'm going to go play on the jungle gym now!

I say Xanadu for president!!!

[Zivo]

You and your buddies are walking through the woods and you come to a fork in the path. One way is clearly on fire, spikes standing up on the ground, feces trees all around in full bloom. The opposing path has all the little animals running down it, escaping the flames of the other. The flora smells sweet, the sun is peeking through causing those awesome shafts of light on the leaves. Your friends say to lead them down the burning path. It doesn't matter that it is obviously certain peril, and they fill you full of reasons why you should go down the firey stink road. You do, and then you realize your mistake. Do you keep listening to the advisors that tell you that paradise is just 'round the bend, or cut your own path to the other one and break open the picnic basket?

[awip2062]

I say Xanadu for president!!!

I say Ronnie James Dio!

I have wished many times that I had more of a choice when voting, but I go with what I am given as options.

Like Elfie, I am not a memeber of any party. No party represents me well. I will vote for whomever I see as the best, but I don't vote against people.

As far as not voting goes, my family history and all my mother taught me keeps me from not voting. I teach my kids that history as well and H syas that she will register to vote as soon as she is able and will not miss voting this November.

As far as the trail analogy goes, sometimes it IS the proper course to go down the path of hell. E.g.: The U.S. entering WWII.

[Mr. Potatoe Head]

Anyone for some wine and this cheese is just awsome

[awip2062]

Here's some Tillamok cheese, and wine made right here in Port Angeles!

[*Lifesonite]

Yes, sometimes the flames of war spread and you have no choice. I don't have the time to do the research to find out what REALLY happened in Iraq, but whatever the objective was I'm sure it wasn't just one thing. They would tell us, but then it wouldn't be politics

[Zivo]

Yeah, I don't know what I was sayin'. Just stabbing at anything, I guess.
I have a weird way of expressing a thought. I'm thinking this isn't the thread for too much of that.

[ElfDude]

The lower & middle class are taking the brunt of paying taxes now.

That is factually incorrect. Last year, the top 5% of earners in the country paid 40% of the taxes. This rich do indeed pay the lion's share of the taxes.

I need to correct myself. Up above I stated that I didn't start this thread. I did indeed start this thread. For some reason I thought I was writing in the thread about Dr. Rice's testimony. Sorry about that.

And awip is correct, the path of least resistance is not always the correct path. Doing the right thing is seldom the easiest thing.

[Zivo]

the path of least resistance is not always the correct path. Doing the right thing is seldom the easiest thing.

See what I mean? That was not my point at all

[*Lifesonite]

He meant it more as a metaphor for something we didn't need to do, a path we didn't need to go down.

[Mr. Potatoe Head]

Sometimes it's how well we read between the lines. We can't be right all the time. As for the lower income bracket paying the brunt of taxes, it's who you ask. There are so many valuables on our current situation. On one hand I think it's a noble cause freeing a repressed people from tyrants and some of the companys going over seas helps in sharing a world economy freeing people further, with work. Then we come to gobbling up our resources at a greater rate. I can't see a perfect solution
eventually snowballing to who knows what. I can only hope for the betterment of humanity. The sernerio is being played out and will continue for some time to come. Most of the terrorist were Saudis that attacked the towers. That should make one think that there was some kind of retribution going on. We know of financial wranglings going on between powers that went sour but at this time no one is talking. In the end it's most likely going to be said we done it for a free world. I could give my opinon that eventually only the best of the best minds and bodies
of every race will inhabit the earth far off in the future or that war speeds up humanity towards something better but then we are delving into something I'd rather not discuss for I'm not very good at explaining myself at times. For now we live in an unbalenced world perhaps slowly coming around so everyone has the opertunity to succeed. I wish I only knew but not knowing I'll take the road that will free all people as I'm free
I hope you can all understand now, were it is I stand! Very diffecult subject

[ElfDude]

He meant it more as a metaphor for something we didn't need to do, a path we didn't need to go down.

By not going down the path we're on now we would have ended up with Iraq turning into another North Korea, except with money and even stronger expansionist desires.

Because we've gone down the path we're on we haven't had another terrorist attack on our soil in two and a half years.

Because we've gone down the path we're on millions of people who were living each day in fear of whether today was the day that their dictator would kill them now have freedoms such as have not been known in that part of the world in generations... maybe ever.